again thanks, for that website awesome products , I have been using lacquer based translucent stained glass type paints, for my desired effects , ok for indoor stuff , not totally weatherproof though, i want my stuff to last.. never knew that patina stuff existed ( i don't get out much) I am getting a little ahead of myself here as I am still making room in the garage electrical and what knot, and am still cutting by hand torch. but that site takes metal to a whole new level. oh and by the way I have decided on the torch mate 4x4 growth series,, thanks to all joe